Ancient urges: Why we eat things we shouldn't with Morgan Hines
On today's episode of the 5 Things podcast:
We've all heard that our food choices play a big part in our weight gain, but is there something deeper to why we continue to choose foods we know aren't good for us anyway?
5 Things Sunday host James Brown addressed this a few months ago with guest Karen Weintraub in an episode called Like most Americans, I'm fat and trying not to be. You can listen to it by clicking on the story.
Brown sat down with Paste BN food reporter, Morgan Hines to talk more about about the connection between our brain and what Charles Spence, a professor of experimental psychology at the University of Oxford calls "ancient urges," and how it spills into our lives in other areas like spending over saving money.
She said, "It's conditioning from our upbringing that contributes to how we associate food and when we want it. So it might not be the food or the flavor even, as much as it is the association we pair with the food."
And breaking that association takes being mindful.
For more on this topic read:
Why do we eat foods that we know we shouldn't?
Inside America's obesity epidemic: How America's weight (and weight loss) aren't so simple.
Follow James Brown, Morgan Hines and Karen Weintraub on Twitter.
If you have a comment about the show or a question or topic you'd like us to discuss, send James Brown an email at jabrown@usatoday.com or podcasts@usatoday.com. You can also leave him a voicemail at 585-484-0339. We might have you on the show.
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Hit play on the player above to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript below. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.
James Brown: Hello, and welcome to 5 Things. I'm James Brown. Go Bills. Every week, we take a question, an idea, or a concept and go deep. If there's something you'd like us to look into or just want to say hello, email me at jabrown@usatoday.com. You find me anywhere on social media @jamesbrowntv or call our voicemail line (585) 484-0339. I love reading and listening to all of your messages.
A few months ago, I recorded a show with my colleague, Karen Weintraub. It's called Like Most Americans, I'm Fat and Trying Not to Be. We'll link to it in the description. We talk about America's obesity epidemic and how I'm fighting my way out of it. Your response was great. It's one of the most listened to shows I've recorded so far this year.
I heard from so many of you, and it was obvious that I'm not the only one who has struggled with obesity. Part of, not all, of course, but most weight problems, come from our food choices. I know I consistently made bad ones as a teenager and as a grown-up, even when I knew better. Why we do that is today's topic with Morgan Hines, USA Today's resident food reporter.
Morgan Hines. Welcome back to 5 Things.
Morgan Hines: Hi, thanks for having me. This is a really interesting topic, so I'm excited to talk about it with you.
James Brown: I'm excited to talk to you too, and I'm pumped USA Today has a food reporter. That's awesome. Any favorites things about the beat so far?
Morgan Hines: Oh, everything. It's a really interesting intersection, food, if you think about it, because everyone eats. So, it's a really cool intersection between travel and culture. And I'm particularly interested in nutrition as well, just on a personal level. So, it's been pretty fascinating to go through different things, learn about cooking at home. I'm a new at-home chef, so I have a lot to learn, and I'm definitely on a learning curve right now, but it's been really fun.
James Brown: What have you made so far? Anything good?
Morgan Hines: I'm really into stuffed acorn squash right now. I've been doing that for dinner a lot and in different variations. So, I've been roasting acorn squash and vegetables and chicken sausage, and I really like that. I'm newly into tofu and a few other things. I love finding different ways to use leftover bananas. I've written about that. I'm big into smoothies. Kale and berries smoothie is my favorite breakfast right now and oatmeal.
So, nothing terribly crazy, but I'm trying to do different things to continue to learn.
James Brown: I'm exploring myself. I made a stuffed pepper that was not great. I'm going to try it again at some point soon, I think, maybe, if I get the guts to.
Morgan Hines: I think you should. It's all about trial-and-error. Right? How else will we learn?
James Brown: Yeah. Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, I wanted to give you a bit of an anecdote. There's a chicken wing place near me, and the centerpiece of this place is this high-calorie, sticky, sugary, thick orange sauce, that's gooped on giant wings. And I would have these, and it would make me feel like crap, every time, but they tasted wonderful.
And I kept going and going and going. And from your reporting, I learned that apparently, people often eat things that make them feel bad. Why do we do this? What did you find out?
Morgan Hines: Yeah, so I totally get where you're coming from. There are a few things that I know I need to look out for. I'm lactose intolerant, for example, and I know that I should keep an eye on things like my cholesterol, but those things also don't stop me from picking at stuff, like a cheese board or ordering ice cream, which is double-whammy for me. I shouldn't have either of those things.
And I know that, while I'm eating, that these choices aren't going to help future Morgan, but I keep doing the same thing. And every time I do it, I feel awful, and I feel like trash. And then I say to myself, "I'm not going to do it. Not going to eat cheese. I'm going to stay away from sugar." But somehow, I keep doing the same thing, like you're talking about.
I wanted to talk to experts about this because there's a variety of reasons why we choose to eat what we eat, and those are dependent on the individual and their circumstances, among other factors.
It's important to understand that there's somewhat of a spectrum when it comes to the healthfulness and food. So, all foods can fit into a healthy diet, and that's what David Creel, who's a psychologist and registered dietitian with Cleveland Clinic's Bariatric and Metabolic Institute told me.
But there are foods that are on the less healthy end of the spectrum that we choose to consume, even with logical consequence. And I mean, I know that, at least for me, I know that when I'm eating cheese, I'm like, "This isn't going to be good later," but I keep doing it.
And, so, Creel started to explain to me how people go through those decisions. So, he said that some people think about what they're doing, with a cost-benefit analysis, "What I'm going to get from this? What's it going to cost me?" And then they make a decision after weighing those factors.
But not everyone's brain works that way. So, for other people, habit plays into the decisions that they're making. They start to do what's familiar to them, and they're not thinking about it necessarily in the moment.
And that's important to understand too, because we're driven by things like taste and flavor, and it's hard to resist the temptation of sugar or salt or fat. That's what Charles Spence, who's a Professor of Experimental Psychology at Oxford, mentioned to me as well.
And, so, we're driven by taste and flavor, but also associations. So, Creel told me that when patients describe foods that are fond to him, they're often describing things like pizza or ice cream or cake. So, it's not just taste, it's an association. So, if you're, for example, bored on a Friday night, you might order a pizza because that's associated with fun, and not only satisfies a desire for food, but an entertainment quota in your brain.
Another association, for example, might be how a comfort food is identified. So, Creel told me that he associates homemade buttermilk biscuits with his grandmother. It's conditioning from our upbringing that contributes to how we associate food and when we want it. So, it might not be the food's flavor or taste that appeals to us, even as much as the association we pair with the food.
So, if you're looking for that comfort, Creel, for example, might look for those buttermilk biscuits, or if he's looking to indulge in a memory or something like that.
And it's not just that. We're thinking about something we want in the forefront. Right? So, Spence says that, the Oxford professor, says that "We tend to value our immediate desire more than our long-term impact."
So, there's a reward when you have a great-tasting food. Right? Tastes great. You're happy. And we might value that reward in the moment, more than we value something down the line. And he says that that's ... It's not just food, it's a tendency of the human brain that happens quite often.
So, it can go beyond food. So, you might be deciding whether to put money into savings for a long-term reward or spend it now. And your tendency might be to spend it now, if you're weighing that immediate reward higher than a long-term reward. And that's a general human tendency, he says.
James Brown: It seems like we're talking about a mix of emotion and decision-making here.
Morgan Hines: I think it would lean into more decision-making than emotion. So, Creel explained to me that two areas of the brain are stimulated during the eating process and that there's research to back that up. So, there are two different drivers: liking food when we eat it and wanting food.
So, both are important. If someone's having a craving for chocolate or ice cream or something that they really, really want, or maybe wings, that's a wanting experience. It's really similar to when someone who smokes is asked whether they like to smoke. They might not like to smoke, but they do crave a cigarette.
So, if you're in an emotional state, you might crave a specific food, like you're talking about, but the liking experience comes after eating or experiencing a food, rather than before. Sometimes, liking and wanting feed into each other, but they happen in different areas of the brain.
So, the physiology of how we decide what we want to eat is complex, and it varies based on who is making those choices and what their prior experiences are. Does that make sense?
James Brown: Yeah, it does. And it kind of reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from your piece, and this is from Spence. He said that, "The brain evolved from feeding, foraging, and fornicating," noting that it's hard to override what he calls "ancient urges."
Morgan Hines: Right. So, beyond the way that you make decisions and your prior experience personally, this has to do with human history, at least according to Spence. So, the brain pays more attention to foods that are energy-dense, with extra attention to foods that are high in fat. We're evolved, he thinks, to find those foods attractive because, at one point, they were essential to survival.
So, a long time ago, people were maybe struggling to find sign sufficient food to stay alive and survive. But now, many of us live in is ... what he calls a "food-rich environment."
So, those foods are maybe more energy-dense than we need now. But because of the way that the brain evolved, it's kind of hard to fight those urges to want those things.
James Brown: I wonder, as you're sort of thinking about that charcuterie board or those lumps of cheese, do you see yourself rationalizing that you're okay with that moment of discomfort, as long as you get that craving fed?
Morgan Hines: So, I think that I tend to fall into the category of not thinking as much. I try to, and sometimes that helps me, where I'll go to the fridge, and maybe I had friends over, and so I have leftover cheese from a Friday night dinner at my apartment or something like that. And if I think to myself, "Do I really need this? Is it really going to benefit me? I know I need to be careful about my cholesterol. Do I really want this to be a larger problem down the line?" I can walk it back.
But most of the time, I'm in the middle of 18 things. I'm working. I'm on the phone with my mom. I'm doing chores around the apartment, or have just had a workout and am not really paying attention. And it's something that I see and know I like, and I'll grab it and cut a piece and cut a piece of cheese and move on to the next thing, without really thinking about it.
And I think that that's where it becomes a problem, for me at least, because I'm doing something that maybe I enjoy, but it's not necessarily in the kind of moderation that it should be, given the things that I need to watch for my own well-being.
So, I'm eating probably too much cheese and maybe ice cream or whatever. Or, same thing, I can justify it that way, if I order on DoorDash, and I'm like, "I really want frozen yogurt. I had a long day. I deserve this," I can do that. But when you do it too often, at least for me, that's when it becomes something that I shouldn't be doing. And I know that, but I continue to do it.
So, it was really interesting to explore the psychology behind this and to also explore how I should be thinking about this to preserve my longer term health.
James Brown: We all have this sort of struggle on some level. So, how do we adjust our thought process when we're making choices?
Morgan Hines: This is really interesting because, like I said at the beginning, I continue to make choices that I'm not happy about. And, so, it's a habit-changing thing that we have to do, and that means that we have to change the way that we're thinking about this.
So, Creel kind of explained to me how he encourages patients he sees in his practice to pause before taking action and consider their choice. Instead of seeing a food as forbidden, like I said, "I don't want to eat cheese ever again," or "I don't want to eat sugar," thinking about the choices you have as two options that could have different outcomes.
So, he explained that if you tell yourself, "I should have this food, and I shouldn't have this other food," it sets yourself up to not do well, kind of. For example, if we say to ourselves, "I should have an apple, and I shouldn't have cake," you either, A, eat the apple and feel as though you missed out on eating the cake, or B, you eat the cake, but you feel guilty after because you didn't eat the apple, which was maybe on the higher end of the health spectrum.
So, if you look at these choices while weighing the outcomes, your actions are going to be different. So, you should change, in your thought process, a should to a could, because that gives you the freedom to make the decision and removes guilt.
So, you could have an apple, or you could have cake, and your decision might look a little bit more like this. So, if you choose to have an apple that you think you will enjoy because it's a very good apple, that's option A. Or option B, you could choose to enjoy the cake because it's your favorite kind of cake, or it's your birthday, whatever the reason may be, and find that you don't have guilt because you made a conscious decision that eating the cake was worth it.
And when you're making a mindful decision, which what you're really looking to build here is a mindfulness habit, it's not just that guilt could be removed. Creel explained that you're also avoiding something less healthy, like cake, if you come to a decision to have made the mindful way.
So, being mindful can enhance the enjoyment of food, and it also helps you to not over-consume foods that are maybe not as good for you. So, if you decide, "I'm going to have this piece of cake for this reason, and I don't feel bad about it," you might stop eating the cake after that, rather than feeling guilty about it and continuing to eat it anyway. You might end up eating more if you feel a certain way or almost feel like you need to prove yourself wrong that you can have the cake, you might end up eating more than you should have.
James Brown: So, it's about the reasoning, reasoning with yourself, to stop making the bad decision.
Morgan Hines: Yeah. And I mean, you can reason yourself into different situations all the time, but it's more about being mindful. So, "What is this going to do for me? Am I going to really love this piece of cake? Or is this a piece of cake that's here, and if I think about it logically, I might actually like the apple better because it's not my favorite kind of cake, and I'll feel better longer because of it?"
Or "The apple's there, but this is my favorite kind of cake, and I don't get to have it very often," that might make you feel like, "Okay, I had a treat. And I know I'm okay with having this treat because of these circumstances." So, it's all about mindfulness.
James Brown: Gotcha, gotcha. And I think we can all be a little bit more mindful. Right?
Morgan Hines: Yeah. And in all areas of life, I think. It's hard. It's really interesting. There's a lot of temptations out there. But I definitely know that I'll be trying to apply more mindfulness in my regular routines, especially when it comes to eating.
James Brown: Any famous last words?
Morgan Hines: Thank you for having me. And as I say all this, I probably still will eat cheese, but hopefully will do it in a better, mindful capacity than what I have been doing.
James Brown: If you like the show, write us a review on Apple Podcast or wherever you're listening, and do me a favor, share with a friend.
Thanks to Morgan Hines for joining me. And if you'd like to know more about why we make bad decisions when it comes to food, we'll have a link to her article in our description.
Thanks to Shannon Rae Green and Alexis Gustin for their production assistance. Taylor Wilson will be back tomorrow morning.
For all of us at USA Today, I'm James Brown, and as always, be well.