Rethinking the American dream: Trade schools vs. college degrees | The Excerpt
On a special episode (first released on June 19, 2025) of The Excerpt podcast: Should high school students consider trade school instead of college? For some, the benefits of entering the trades may outweigh a college degree. Steve Klein, a senior expert at Education Northwest, a non-profit that uses research to solve educational challenges and improve learning, joins The Excerpt to share his insights.
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Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.
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Dana Taylor:
Hello, I'm Dana Taylor, and this is a special episode of The Excerpt. Skilled trades, think hard hats and toolboxes are in demand. Perhaps it's time to rethink the 1980s college for all approach. Are trade careers a smarter gamble for high school students and young adults? As older generations retire from the workforce, could that be a viable path to the American Dream and financial independence? Here to dig into what the data tells us about training, education, and choosing a successful career path is Steve Klein, a researcher at the nonprofit, Education Northwest. Thanks for joining me, Steve.
Steve Klein:
Thanks for having me.
Dana Taylor:
You've spent more than 30 years working with government agencies designing career pathways for CTE, career and technical education. What are the workforce needs driving the current interest in trade schools?
Steve Klein:
Well, there's a terminology which we call high wage, high spill in demand jobs. And right now there is a shortage of skilled workers in the United States, and employers are looking for individuals who can enter the workforce and be able to do immediately the types of jobs that they need and have the skills that they would require for work. Over time, we're seeing that more a renewed interest in career and technical education as a means of getting students the skills that they would need to be successful at the workplace. And that includes academic skills, technical skills, what we would call employability skills. Which are the skills that maybe won't get you hired but will keep you from being fired.
Dana Taylor:
What are your thoughts regarding partnerships between schools and employers where some high schools are offering classes in a variety of trades, such as welding, that allow students to transition straight to employment after graduation?
Steve Klein:
I think the answer is nuanced. On the one hand, having employers partner with schools offers teachers and students advantages. Many times teachers, even if they come out of the field, have not had contemporary experience in the workforce. And students may not know what it means to work, not as many youth are working. Having an employer come in and be able to partner with schools to look at the curriculum, the standards, the assessments, can really benefit the people in the school who are learning the skills. The flip side of that is we want to be careful that we don't sacrifice breath for depth. We want students to have the academic, technical, and employability skills that are necessary to be successful in the workplace, but we don't want them to be so specific and narrow that students are unable to continue down a career path.
Dana Taylor:
I mentioned financial independence. A recent Wall Street Journal article described high school students enrolled in a shop class being offered $70,000 a year. Are we talking about high-paying jobs here? And then, I want to go back to how important it is to obtain certifications.
Steve Klein:
The good news there is that there are options for students in some fields to be highly successful right out of high school. The concern that people need to be aware of is that the returns to a baccalaureate degree are still strongly positive, although you do have to invest a lot of money to get there. And so, it's important that students, if they are going to take these kind of jobs, that they be aware of what a career path looks like, what would be the promotions necessary to move up. And associated to that, what type of certifications or credentials or degrees would be necessary. Students should be careful, and I would say both parents and students should be thinking about not just chasing the immediate money, but to understand what the options are and what does it mean for a student to enter a specific field immediately after high school. Think about how they might continue their earnings growth and expanding their knowledge while at work so they're not in a dead-end job.
Dana Taylor:
How should schools approach conversations regarding students' options following high school? Is the 1980s college for all approach still omnipresent today?
Steve Klein:
I think that career and technical education, unfortunately, still suffers from somewhat of a stigma. And that is not deserved. The current state of the field is the focus on college and careers, not one or the other. And so, students should be thinking about many different career options as they're going through school and exploring the different choices along the way. The "college for all" approach really didn't work for all students. And frankly, no one approach will work for all students. The flip of that is there's been a real emphasis on apprenticeship for all, and the idea that more and more students should be in apprenticeships. And I think that for a percentage of students that is a very, very good option, but it's probably a very small percentage of students. And it does require that you get very specific, very narrow, very deep, very quickly.
I think that what I'd like to see is a school system that is designed to support students with different interests. And that can be those who are going to go to a four-year college or university immediately after school, some of those students will work while they're there. So also exposing students to the career options that are out there, and that may begin in the middle grades with career exploration where students learn about work and what it means to work.
Dana Taylor:
I want to dig into the biases against working in the trades. Is that an issue? And if so, what's driving it?
Steve Klein:
I think there is a bias against working in the trades. And I think that's one of the pieces that we have to, as a society, address. Some of the most intelligent, skilled people I've ever met were people who came into my house to help sand the floors, paint the house. There's an economy of motion, there's an understanding of what it means to do professional work that the trades, frankly, espouse. And for many of us, we don't really appreciate.
And I will say, personally, that I have found late in life that I'm a frustrated general contractor. I bought houses and learned how to fix them up. I do gas, water, electric, construction, put together a portfolio of rental houses. And even though I have a PhD and am "successful" in an academic world, I'll retire someday because I have skills in the trades that allowed me to put together a earning stream and portfolio that my academic job really, frankly, would not have allowed. I think we have to drop this elitism and recognize that you can make a very good wage and be very proud of what you do if you're in the trades.
Dana Taylor:
We also have to discuss the elephant in the room for all of us, AI and robotics. What do you see as both challenges and opportunities here?
Steve Klein:
Well, for sure, the AI movement is going to change the world. I remember back in the 80s there was the age of the smart machine and the whole idea of automation coming out, and it was going to completely disrupt the world. People are still working in factories, but the type of work has changed. Some of those jobs, like in warehouses for example, are not dirty jobs. Now, they are involved with taking care of technology and machinery. AI can replace some of the types of jobs, but I defy you to get a clutch replacement and a break job through your computer AI software. There are going to be a lot of jobs that we can't outsource, we can't offshore. And so, the opportunities here within the career and technical education space are unlimited as long as we're thoughtful about looking at the career paths. None of us have a crystal ball and can accurately predict, but I would say with some that jobs that are involving a touch, a hands-on, are not going to go away.
Dana Taylor:
Are trade schools and apprenticeships accessible to students equally, or are there geographic barriers here?
Steve Klein:
A lot of those are... Well, they're certainly different in terms of the expectations around them, but certainly geography plays a role in all of this. And I'll even back it up to say just regular career and technical education programming is dependent upon what your school district offers. Some of that has to do with your economic base of your community. Some of it has to do with your urbanicity. It is much more challenging for rural school districts, for example, to offer multiple career and technical education programs. And certainly, if they're capital intensive it becomes cost prohibitive. Distance certainly plays a role. There are online learning options, but even there it can be challenging when you're doing something that requires access to technology.
Dana Taylor:
What mental health benefits or challenges come with entering the workforce through a varied path as a teenager? How critical are the four years of delayed adulting for those attending four-year colleges and universities, for instance?
Steve Klein:
I think that there are advantages to both. One of my beliefs is that no one approach works for all people. It may well be that there are some individuals who are going to go to a four-year college or university, delay entry to the workforce and gain skills. And/or, frankly, grow up at their own pace and time. And it may be that they're more interested in learning ideas. There are other individuals who are going to go right into the workforce upon graduating. And for them, there's the pride of earning money and being able to pay for their own way. The trade-off is, again, going back to the stigma. My wife and I were just talking this morning about how she had attended a high school play and the seniors were being recognized, and all of them were going off to college except for one individual who was not going to go to college, and go to work. And they didn't get the same recognition as others who were going off to a four-year college or university. The prestige factor wasn't there, and that's on us as a society to address.
Dana Taylor:
With trade careers, is there potential here for pathways that help close income inequality gaps? What are the long-term financial implications of choosing a trade career?
Steve Klein:
The research suggests that the returns to a baccalaureate degree are still strong. They are, however, pushed back. Students who graduate from high school and then go into the workforce, or enter a community college and then go into the workforce, will initially make more money than individuals who are deferring going to the workplace. And even when they first graduate, the earnings that they receive from a four-year college or university may not be as strong. But over time they will outpace those earnings for who don't have some sort of advanced certificate, credential, or degree.
Now, that's not to say that's for all people. I will say I am the most educated person in my family, and I make the least amount of money. I'm 62 years old and still working, and my brother retired at 50 who is a cop. There's no one path that's going to be guaranteeing success. And I think we have to really help youth, and parents can play a role in that along with educators in thinking about, what are your interests? I think we shouldn't ask students to make consequential life decisions. Many of them don't even remember to make their beds in the morning, and yet we're asking them to take coursework and advanced studies that are going to determine a career path.
Dana Taylor:
I can't say that I want to go back and do it all over again, but I think there's a lot of useful information here for people who are just starting out. Steve, thank you so much for being on The Excerpt.
Steve Klein:
Thank you.
Dana Taylor:
Thanks for our senior producer, Shannon Rae Green, and Kaely Monahan, for their production assistance. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to podcasts@usatoday.com. Thanks for listening. I'm Dana Taylor. Taylor Wilson be back tomorrow morning with another episode of The Excerpt.