Oath Keeper leader's family fears Trump pardon | The Excerpt
On Sunday’s episode of The Excerpt podcast: On January 6th, 2021, the nation watched as a violent attack unfolded in Washington D.C. That’s when thousands of supporters of Donald Trump stormed the U.S. Capitol building. But how did we get here? In 2009, a Yale educated attorney and former Army paratrooper named Stewart Rhodes founded a far-right anti-government militia called the Oath Keepers. How did Rhodes come to create, recruit and lead the group whose name would become synonymous with the attack on the Capitol? And why is his family terrified that, should Donald Trump win the 2024 presidential election, the man they fear most could be pardoned and released? Paste BN National Correspondent and Extremism Reporter Will Carless has spent years covering the Oath Keepers and the trial of Stewart Rhodes. He joins The Excerpt to share his conversations with Stewart Rhodes's family.
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Dana Taylor:
Hello, and welcome to The Excerpt. I'm Dana Taylor. Today is Sunday, October 27th, 2024.
On January 6th, 2021, the nation watched as a violent attack unfolded in Washington DC. That's when thousands of supporters of Donald Trump stormed the US Capitol Building. But how did we get here? Or rather, how did they get there?
In 2009, a Yale-educated attorney and former army paratrooper named Stewart Rhodes founded a far-right anti-government militia called the Oath Keepers. How did Rhodes come to create, recruit, and lead the group whose name would become synonymous with the attack on the Capitol on January 6th? And why is his family terrified that should Donald Trump win the 2024 presidential election, the man they fear most could be pardoned and released?
Tasha Adams:
My ex-husband is Stewart Rhodes. He's the founder and president of the Oath Keepers, the militia who was the mastermind behind the entire January 6th disaster; terrorist attack.
Dana Taylor:
That's Tasha Adams, Stewart Rhodes' now ex-wife. One of their children, Dakota Adams, the eldest of six, also agreed to speak with us.
Dakota Adams:
If Stewart is released from prison, my minor siblings especially need to not be in the United States anymore, before he has a chance to get to Montana. I have absolutely no faith in any protection of the law whatsoever.
Dana Taylor:
Following his father's arrest, Dakota made the decision to change his last name to his mother's maiden name in defiance of his father. Paste BN National Correspondent and extremism reporter, Will Carless has spent years covering the Oath Keepers and the trial of Stewart Rhodes. He recently traveled to Montana to speak with members of Rhodes' estranged family.
Will, thanks so much for joining me.
Will Carless:
Thanks for having me.
Dana Taylor:
First of all, who are the Oath Keepers? Briefly tell us about their history, ideology, and recruitment.
Will Carless:
It's mainly made up of former and current law enforcement, former and current military, and these people see themselves as the last line of defense against government tyranny. So they believe that their job is to sort of protect the public from an overreaching government that might try to disarm them, might try to put them in internment camps and that sort of thing. So that's who the Oath Keepers are.
Dana Taylor:
As I mentioned, you've been reporting on this story for some time. What can you tell us about Stewart Rhodes? What was he charged with and ultimately convicted of?
Will Carless:
So Rhodes was essentially charged, he was charged with seditious conspiracy, among other crimes, which is an extremely serious crime. I mean, it was the most serious crime in relation to the January 6th insurrection. He's been called many times one of the masterminds of January 6th, and he essentially is accused of plotting to basically trying to undermine democracy and overthrow democracy by stopping Congress from ratifying and counting the votes on January 6th to endorse the 2020 election.
He never went into the Capitol itself, but he certainly was involved in getting people there and organizing people once they were there. For example, the Oath Keepers had a stash of weapons in a motel across the Potomac that they were ready to access if they needed to. They had something called a QRF, or a quick reaction force, which was a group of high-level Oath Keepers who presumably were going to go and get those guns and use them if they had to. And so, very, very serious crimes. And he was ultimately found guilty and he's now sitting in a federal prison, and he's been there for 18 months, and he's supposed to serve another 18 years or so.
Dana Taylor:
Will, what did the government know about Stewart Rhodes in about the planning behind January 6th at that time?
Will Carless:
Well, the government had a big trove of messages, mostly on encrypted messaging apps, between Stewart and his high-level lieutenants, and they were able to very carefully and very cleverly use those messages to paint a picture of these individuals. Really, not just plotting to cause chaos or, as some people would have you believe, have a nice day at the Capitol, a nice day of love and looking around, but they were able to show that these guys did have real intentions to overthrow the government. I mean, this was essentially, the accusation was that this was a coup attempt. And Rhodes has pretty much, not admitted to that, but has said, "Look, we believe that Trump was going to invoke the Insurrection Act, which would have made what we were doing legal, essentially, under the Constitution." And so it was painted very much as this very serious, very organized coup attempt that fortunately for everyone involved was never successful.
Dana Taylor:
You recently met with members of Stewart Rhodes' family. His ex-wife, Tasha Adams fears for her life and the lives of their children if Rhodes is pardoned. I want to start at the beginning of their relationship and why it took so long for her to see the dysfunction in it. Here's what she shared with you regarding that.
Tasha Adams:
I might be a master at excusing bad behaviors, honestly, and a master enabler, unfortunately, because I made excuses for so long, and there were definitely times early on where he scared me and I thought it was me being silly; this was on me. He wasn't physically violent, but he was screaming.
Dana Taylor:
Will, how long did it take for her to realize that her husband, Stewart Rhodes, was a dangerous man? What else did she share with you regarding that time in their lives?
Will Carless:
Well, there's no doubt that the relationship between Stewart Rhodes and Tasha Adams deteriorated over the years. It started off like most relationships do, very happy and carefree, and just deteriorated over time. And you can sort of trace the deterioration of their marriage with the growth of the Oath Keepers. Tasha describes Stewart Rhodes very much as a megalomaniac, a narcissist. And as his organization increased in numbers, increased in power, increased in the revenue that it was pulling in and the attention it was getting, Stewart, according to Tasha, went more and more off the rails and became more and more narcissistic and bizarre in his behavior.
She describes it as a classic abusive relationship between her and her husband. She describes all sorts of horrible scenes in the family home, where she claimed Stewart would threaten the children, actually grabbed her daughter by the neck at one point, would wave his gun around and threaten to kill himself but be waving the gun elsewhere. And as Stewart lost track more and more with reality, it sounds like, according to her, the family life and the marital life became more and more unstable.
Dana Taylor:
You've covered the case against Stewart Rhodes and the Oath Keepers, but much of this part of the story deals with the cratering of this man's family. Were you surprised they were willing to sit down with you?
Will Carless:
No, not at all. I've been talking to Tasha Adams for years now. I mean, right back to January 6th, and I was introduced to her by a mutual acquaintance, and we've been talking on and off. I'll just call her and talk to her and see how she's getting on and see how she's rebuilding her life. So I wasn't surprised that they would talk to me. I only talked to the oldest son, Dakota. I think that the other children have really tried to distance themselves and get on with their lives.
There are six children in total, and I've talked to Tasha and to her eldest son, but this is their story. This is their life. I talked to Tasha about the story that's coming out and I said, "Look, I hope you're happy with this because this is your story. It's not my story, it's your story." And I really hope that we've done you proud in terms of getting across just how horrible this has been and just how horrible her current situation is as she waits to see whether her abusive husband is let out of prison and, according to her, possibly comes after her.
Dana Taylor:
Tasha and Stewart eventually divorced, but they were married for quite some time.
Tasha Adams:
We separated in 2018. We had been married, I think 24 years. The entire divorce process took five and a half years. So I guess you could say we were married 30 years, but I hadn't seen him for the bulk of five years when that finally went through. He just never fully blossomed into adulthood. I don't know how else to say it. He graduated from law school and then fell flat. He got fired from everywhere, seemed to have no work ethic, just wouldn't do his work.
Dana Taylor:
So Tasha Adams witnessed the making of a militia; the Oath Keepers. Was she initially on board with what Stewart was doing, creating this anti-government organization?
Will Carless:
It's a good question, and I think she would say kind of, sort of. I mean, you couldn't be in that relationship and in that cabin without having some involvement in the Oath Keepers. And the way that she describes the initial foundation of the Oath Keepers was that Stewart wanted to create what he initially called like an ACLU for the right. And that sounds pretty noble, right? I mean, that sounds like a pretty fair thing. And I think that there was a disconnect between what Stewart said he wanted to do and what he actually did and what actually began to manifest itself with the Oath Keepers.
So I think Stewart initially saw this as a legal organization that would provide everything from philosophical support to moral support, to legal support, to financial support, to people on the right who were dealing with the tyranny of government. But unfortunately, his more conspiratorial ideas combined with his very volatile personality seemed to have just led to this becoming more of just a free for all in terms of what they believed in and in terms of what they ultimately succeeded. Even Tasha would say, "Look, in its original guise, I would support what the Oath Keepers were about, but I'll in no way support what Stewart turned them into." I think that's what Tasha would say in that situation.
Dana Taylor:
The world was stunned as we watched the events of January 6th unfold. Although Tasha and Stewart were no longer together by that time, she did of course intimately know the man who has now been convicted of orchestrating it.
Tasha Adams:
As it becomes clear that Stewart really is behind this, even, I believe, behind everything the Proud Boys were doing. This is his plan, and it looks like something I've seen him talk about a thousand times. So I know that this is him, but I also know that nobody else knows that this is him. Here's a guy who is a part of this, he has this group and there's this other group and another group, and they all came together and they did this thing. And I started to realize that the story is important. I know Stewart did this, and how do I get these people to know that he did this?
Dana Taylor:
To be clear, this is a woman who says she was in a decades-long relationship with an abusive man. But she ultimately makes the decision to act.
Tasha Adams:
And I had been in contact that whole time with a lot of anti-extremist experts, "And what's your opinion on this? What do you think is going on?" And a lot of them were saying, "I don't know if he's going to get arrested." Look at Bundy ranch. He got away with that. Eventually he was arrested, and I cannot tell you, I hate to use something so overused as roller coaster, but it was a celebration moment. But then there's also the hurry-up and wait moment of, yeah, he's arrested, but what if they let him out on bond?
Will Carless:
When they were deciding whether he should go out on bail, she called into the court and said, "Look, I mean, this is a man who's had a stash of weapons, who's had escape tunnels dug away from his home, who has shown every indication of planning, really, to thwart the federal government, and he will run away, essentially." And actually bringing it full circle, that's one of the reasons why Tasha is so worried about Stewart, because she fears that if he gets out of prison, she fears that he sees the continuation of being arrested to still being in prison now for the next sort of 17 years or whatever it is, that Tasha was a big cause of that because she never got him out on bail, or she was the missing link in stopping him from being allowed out on bail, at which point possibly he might have been able to flee the country or something like that, but he also would have been able to prepare his legal case.
So that's how Tasha sees it. She believes that Stewart very much blames her for his current strife and his current incarceration, and that he will try to wreak his revenge if he's ever allowed out.
Dana Taylor:
Will, you asked her a tough question, a worst case scenario question regarding her fears about Stewart Rhodes.
Will Carless:
So worst case scenario, according to both Tasha and Dakota, is that Stewart is let out of prison, that he goes on a binge, as they put it, to enjoy his freedom, and that he then comes after them, and comes after them with weapons and does them some harm. That's what they believe. And particularly not just Tasha, not just Dakota, but also they're particularly worried about the younger children as well.
Tasha Adams:
He is somebody that had a kill list, always. Always, always, always. And he never changed the people on that kill list. And the kill list was supposed to be a list he activated that said if he ever got cancer or if he ever knew he was going to be arrested, he would go and kill everybody on his list.
Dana Taylor:
Adams said Rhodes' kill list was in his head. A former Oath Keeper employee agreed with Adams and also told the House Select Committee investigating January 6th that Rhodes also considered making a deck of cards listing all the people he wanted to "get rid of."
Dakota Adams:
At the time, I would have told you that Stewart had to believe in a historic event that would change America forever. Because the lifelong trajectory of his entire belief system, going back to even well before Oath Keepers, Stewart has always had a messiahic delusion of grandeur centered around himself and belief in himself as somehow destined to be a savior figure in American history. Something analogous to one of the Mormon prophets is going to be someone who saves America from civil war and disaster. But I also would have told you that he had to believe this because he was too afraid of any other outcome.
Dana Taylor:
Stewart's son Dakota also shared some very serious concerns about his father's mental state in the immediate aftermath. What did he share with you about his thinking now?
Will Carless:
He grew up among this. He was the eldest son, and so he was both relied upon by his siblings to protect them and care for them in Stewart's absence and under Stewart's tyranny and wrath. So he really knows his dad pretty much inside and out. He's worried that his dad is essentially just unhinged and is not well mentally. He said to me that he just has no faith whatsoever in the system to protect him. And I think that's part of the juxtaposition here is that both Tasha and Dakota, and presumably the rest of the family, lived in fear for so long of Stewart, and then he was convicted and he went to prison and they breathed a sigh of relief and they thought, "He's gone. He's finally locked up. He's not going to come back someday." And now, of course, they face this specter of him being pardoned by former President Trump and him getting out, and all of that worry and all of that fear has come back again.
So I think that there's a certain amount of trauma there. Obviously these people have gone through a huge amount of trauma with this guy, but I also don't think it's necessarily unfounded. I mean, this is a man who sought to overthrow the US government and who stashed weapons or ordered people to stash weapons in preparation for a storming of the US Capitol. So for them to fear that he will wreak retribution and revenge against them, I don't think is fantasy. I think that they have good reason to have that fear and trepidation. And ultimately, nobody knows better than them. They lived with him. Tasha lived with him for almost three decades. She knows him better than anybody else, and she's absolutely terrified.
Dana Taylor:
I know that you requested an interview with Stewart Rhodes, but he's so far refused. What has his attorney said about the claims being made by the family?
Will Carless:
His attorneys, to the extent that they've communicated about this, have strenuously denied it. They've said that there's absolutely no truth to these claims. They have pointed out, I think fairly, that look, Stewart and Tasha were estranged for many years, for several years between the divorce and January 6th, and at no point in that time did Stewart attempt to harm her or to harm the children. They've essentially said, look, this is a fantasy cooked up by Tasha and Dakota, and this is never going to happen. In response to that, Tasha said, "Well, look, I mean, you're right. Stewart didn't come after me. But he was also planning an insurrection, so he had a focus elsewhere." And what she worries about is post any sort of pardon, if he does get out of prison, there's no longer that insurrection at play and there's no longer that planning to be done. And she worries that what fills the vacuum is retribution against his family.
Dana Taylor:
What has former President Donald Trump said about pardoning those who've now been convicted for their role in the storming of the US Capitol building on January 6th, 2021?
Will Carless:
Pretty much every time he's asked about this, President Trump has done what President Trump does, which is to sort of make a broad sweeping statement. "Yes, of course I'm going to pardon them." But then he always caveats it a little bit. If they're innocent, he'll pardon them, is what he said at a conference a few months ago. But he has increasingly ramped up the rhetoric when it comes to January 6th. I mean, he called it a "day of love" recently. He's talked about how these people are akin to political prisoners. A lot of people look at what he's saying and say, "Well, it'd be very difficult for him to take office and not to pardon them, given what he's said at this point."
Now, we did reach out to the Trump campaign. They responded and said that he would consider pardons on a case-to-case basis. They wouldn't comment specifically on the Stewart Rhodes case. You could look at it and you could say, well, look, this is one of the two most serious cases in this instance, but it's also not a violence case. Stewart Rhodes didn't hit anybody. He didn't strike anybody. He didn't shoot anybody. What he did was he planned. And if you look at what he planned, he planned an action that was in furtherance of President Donald Trump at the time. And there are all sorts of interesting connections between Stewart Rhodes and Donald Trump.
So there is undoubtedly a scenario where President Trump could say, "Look, I'm not going to pardon people who beat up Capitol police officers or who smashed things in the Capitol, but I am going to pardon all the nonviolent criminals." And incredibly, that includes Stewart Rhodes, because he didn't commit any acts of violence. And so I don't think it's in any way inconceivable that Trump does pardon Rhodes and lets him out of prison.
Dana Taylor:
Will, thank you so much for joining me on The Excerpt.
Will Carless:
It's always a pleasure. Thank you.
Dana Taylor:
Thanks to our senior producers, Shannon Rae Green and Kaely Monahan for their production assistance. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to podcasts@usatoday.com. Thanks for listening. I'm Dana Taylor. Taylor Wilson will be back tomorrow morning with another episode of The Excerpt.