Pope Francis dead at 88 | The Excerpt
On Monday’s episode of The Excerpt podcast: Tennessean Religion Reporter Liam Adams discusses the life and legacy of Pope Francis. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared Yemen attack plans with his wife, brother and lawyer in a group chat, according to a source. Paste BN White House Reporter Zac Anderson discusses how President Donald Trump is leaning into the deportation fight as a battle he thinks he can win. Paste BN Supreme Court Correspondent Maureen Groppe breaks down the high court's decision to take on children's books and LGBTQ+ messages in school.
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Taylor Wilson:
Good morning, I'm Taylor Wilson, and today is Monday, April 21st, 2025. This is The Excerpt.
Today we remember Pope Francis, plus Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth reportedly shared details of an attack on Houthis in a message group that included his family members. And the Supreme Court takes on children's books in school.
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Pope Francis has died. The first Latin American leader of the Catholic Church had survived a serious bout of double pneumonia in recent months. I spoke with Liam Adams, a religion reporter with the Tennessean, part of the Paste BN Network, for more on the life and legacy of Pope Francis.
Hello, Liam. Thanks for hopping on on this.
Liam Adams:
Thanks for having me.
Taylor Wilson:
So let's just go back to the moment he became Pope. What was it about his election in 2013 that was so historic, and what were some of the major themes of his early tenure?
Liam Adams:
So Pope Francis, he stepped into the Papacy after serving as the Archbishop of Buenos Aires. His name is Jorge Mario Bergoglio, and he was the first Pope from Latin America and the first from the Southern Hemisphere. Early on into his tenure, his attitude toward leadership over the Catholic Church was a shift. Some examples that stood out was his commitment to living simplistically. So for example, he decided instead of taking residence in the Apostolic Palace, he stayed in the Vatican Guest house. And that set the tone for a lot of his attitudes that would over time emerge through his policies and proclamations.
Taylor Wilson:
Well, as you noted, the Catholic Church really has changed under Francis's leadership with some describing that shift as progressive. Liam, is that a fair characterization, and why?
Liam Adams:
Yeah, so that progressive label isn't necessarily universally accepted, but there have definitely been a series of changes under Francis's leadership that represented a significant shift in the ideological foundation of Church belief and practice. At the top of that list are dealing with his attitudes toward women in Church leadership roles and inclusion for LGBTQ+ Catholics. But other defining moments of Francis' legacy include his positions on combating climate change, caring for immigrants, acknowledging past failures at addressing clergy sexual abuse, and apologizing for abuses at Catholic-run indigenous boarding schools, among other issues. He also sought to reform Church policy and institutions to ensure greater financial accountability, and to counter movements within the Church that he saw as divisive and exclusionary.
Taylor Wilson:
And Liam, over these last few years, he's seen all kinds of challenges across the world, right?. We had a pandemic, we've seen wars break out. What were some defining moments of the latter years of Francis's papacy? What stands out to you?
Liam Adams:
That's a good point about the COVID-19 pandemic and some other major moments in global diplomacy, which Francis would speak to, whether that was Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or Russia's war in Ukraine. But, when it comes to the US Church, probably the most defining part of the latter years of his tenure was his conflict with traditionalist Catholics.
So, that revolved around a series of changes under Francis' leadership, including limiting a traditionalist liturgy, called traditional Latin mass, over concerns that some were using it to sow division. And then, a series of disciplinary judgments against three conservative and high-ranking US-based Church officials who had protested Francis' actions and questioned the legitimacy of his leadership. In the past couple years, that conflict has now carried over into US politics, in which conservative Catholic unrest toward Francis has heightened tensions between the Vatican and President Donald Trump's Administration over issues like immigration policy.
Taylor Wilson:
Liam, the death of a Pope is really by definition an inflection point. Where does the Catholic Church go from here?
Liam Adams:
The tensions that existed in the twilight of Francis's tenure as Pope are still there. And so, the Catholic Church will be in this moment of not just searching for leadership but its identity going forward. And, that is an identity of belief and practice. And what happens going forward will also affect the relationship between church hierarchy in the US Church, and whether the US Catholic Church, its relationship with other Catholics around the world.
Taylor Wilson:
Liam Adams covers religion for the Tennessean part of the Paste BN network. Liam, thank you so much for joining me here in the wake of Pope Francis' passing.
Liam Adams:
Thank you for having me.
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Taylor Wilson:
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared details of an attack on Yemen's Iran-aligned Houthis in a message group that included his wife, brother, and personal lawyer, according to a source familiar with the matter, to Reuters yesterday. In the Chat, Hegseth shared details of the attacks similar to those revealed last month by the Atlantic Magazine after its Editor-in-Chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, was included in a separate chat on the Signal app by mistake. The incident marked an embarrassment for the Trump Administration and its most senior National Security officials. Senior officials were ousted from the Pentagon last week as part of an internal investigation into that leak. The person familiar with the latest matter speaking anonymously said the second Chat included about a dozen people and was created during Hegseth's confirmation process to discuss administrative issues, instead of detailed military planning.
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Amidst some of the economic turbulence we've seen in recent months, President Donald Trump is leaning into deportations, a fight he thinks he can win. I spoke with Paste BN White House Reporter Zac Anderson to learn more. Hi, Zac.
Zac Anderson:
Hey, how are you?
Taylor Wilson:
Good, good. Thanks for hopping on on this, Zac. It was a week of twists and turns. Tell us a bit about the Trump response though after especially the Kilmar Abrego Garcia meeting last week with Senator Chris Van Hollen, and just how he's approaching all this.
Zac Anderson:
So the White House has really come out aggressively in pushing back against this. They've used the White House X handle to slam Senator Van Hollen and to troll critics who are saying that what is happening to Kilmar Abrego Garcia is wrong. President Trump came out in the Oval Office and really unloaded on Abrego Garcia, so it's been a really aggressive response.
Taylor Wilson:
We've seen a slew of negative headlines about the economy in recent weeks, Zac. By pushing the deportation debate or leaning into these issues, is it fair to say that Trump is keeping the focus away from the economy?
Zac Anderson:
I think he definitely would rather be talking about immigration than the economy. The economic picture is not great right now. There's a lot of uncertainty around the economy. The economy itself is doing pretty well, but the forecast with Trump's tariffs in play calls for higher inflation, and economic growth to slow down. So, Trump's approval rating on the economy has dipped and it's dragged down his overall approval rating. Immigration has always been something that Trump has seen as a strength. It's been a focus of each of his three Presidential campaigns, really the centerpiece of his first campaign, and his most recent election he promised these mass deportations. He thinks that they play well politically, so he's happy to talk about this right now.
Taylor Wilson:
We obviously saw a Democratic Senator from Abrego Garcia's home state focused on him last week. Does it appear that same level of focus is permeating throughout the party, Zac?
Zac Anderson:
This is an issue the Democrats really do seem to be engaging on, on a number of fronts. They really used this to portray Trump as lawless here. You have a court that has said that Abrego Garcia was wrongfully deported. The Supreme Court said the Trump Administration should facilitate his return, but the Trump Administration has really been defiant, and they're digging in. And so Democrats have said that they're violating the law here, that this is a violation of due process and human rights. And it's an issue where in the past some people have questioned Democrats and some people are now, on whether they should be focusing so much on this rather than the economy, which is usually the central issue for voters.
But even James Carville, who famously said during Bill Clinton's campaign, "It's the economy, stupid," and has reprimanded Democrats when they don't keep their eye on the ball with the economy, he came out and said that this is an issue of just basic values and what's important in the country, and that having these types of due process things is something worth fighting for. So, the Raging Cajun, even he came out and said that this is something where Democrats should take a stand.
Taylor Wilson:
Interesting. So, apart from the politicians and the headlines, I'm just curious where Americans stand on this deportation debate. Do we have any numbers? Because to me, this is a huge part of this conversation.
Zac Anderson:
Yeah, so the polling, it sort of depends on what you look at. If you look at some recent polls, Trump still looks fairly strong on immigration overall. But if you dig down and ask them more detailed, nuanced questions, then you can get a different response. There was a YouGov poll that came out recently that asked people how they feel about deporting immigrants without criminal convictions to El Salvador to be imprisoned without letting them challenge that deportation in court, and that survey found that 61% of people oppose that. So, when you get into the details of this issue, it can look a lot different.
Taylor Wilson:
All right. Folks can get more into those details with a link to Zac's story in today's show notes. Zac Anderson covers the White House for Paste BN. Thank you, sir.
Zac Anderson:
Thank you.
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Taylor Wilson:
The Supreme Court is set to weigh in on a fight over children's books and LGBTQ+ passages in school. I spoke with Paste BN Supreme Court Correspondent Maureen Groppe for more. Hello, Maureen.
Maureen Groppe:
Hey, how are you?
Taylor Wilson:
Good, good. Thanks for hopping on on this. So, what will the Court take on tomorrow as it relates to children's books in school? Let's start there.
Maureen Groppe:
Well, there were some controversial books that were included into a school district in Maryland, their elementary school reading program. It was a handful of books that have LGBTQ characters in them., And some of the parents in the school objected to the books saying that they were essentially teaching ideas that go against their religion.
Taylor Wilson:
So, just can you talk through some of the specifics of the lawsuit that led up to this point, I guess, and just what are some of the controversial books we're actually talking about?
Maureen Groppe:
One book is called Prince & Knight. It's about a prince who falls in love, not with a princess, but with a knight who helps them defeat a dragon. And then there's a book about a girl whose favorite uncle is getting married to another man. And there's a book called Intersection Allies, about a group of people who are different, a girl in a wheelchair who plays basketball, a girl who goes to ballet class wearing a hijab, and a girl who prefers to wear a superhero cape instead of bows and frilly clothes.
The school said that they introduced the books to better reflect the diversity of the community, but when parents objected, they initially allowed parents to have their children be absent from class when the books are being read. At some point, though, the school decided that that was getting to be too disruptive and they no longer allowed that. And so the parents are suing to say that they're not trying to get the books out of the classroom, but they're saying their children have the right not to be present when the books are being read in class.
Taylor Wilson:
And Maureen, what are the broader implications of this case amid other issues around books in school that we've heard about? And I know the court will also be deciding some other religious rights cases in the coming weeks. Can you put all that in context for us?
Maureen Groppe:
So, the broader implications for this case have to do with how involved courts may end up getting in curriculum decisions of schools. In general, judges have not wanted to do that. They have not wanted to decide whether a homework assignment, for example, it violates someone's religion. So there's been a lot of deference to local school decisions. And depending on what the Supreme Court decides and how they decide it, there's a concern among education groups, for example, that this could open schools up to a lot more demands about kids being exempted from different activities for religious reasons.
In terms of the other religious rights cases that the Court is deciding in the next few weeks, there are two others. One concerns the tax-exempt status of a Catholic Charity Group in Wisconsin. And the other, which is one of the biggest cases of the term, it comes from Oklahoma, and it's about whether, if a state has charter schools, whether they have to allow religions to run a charter school. And that case involves a Catholic Church that wants to run a charter school in Oklahoma. And the question is whether they can do that or charter schools public schools, and that if you let the Catholic Church, for example, run a charter school, that's too much of a crossover between government and religion.
Taylor Wilson:
All right. Maureen Groppe covers the Supreme Court for Paste BN. Thank you, Maureen.
Maureen Groppe:
Thank you.
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Taylor Wilson:
And later today, a new episode of Forum, hosted by Michael McCarter.
Michael McCarter:
What do you think of the Democratic Party now and where it's headed? You can hear what listeners and readers like you are feeling about this. Tune into Forum, publishing today at 4:00 PM Eastern Time on this feed.
Taylor Wilson:
We've dropped a link to the written version of Forum in today's show notes.
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Thanks for listening to the Excerpt, you can get the podcast wherever you get your audio. And if you're on a smart speaker, just ask for the Excerpt. I'm Taylor Wilson, and I'll be back tomorrow with more of the Excerpt from Paste BN.